30 Minutes with Tim O’Brien

Polarizing campus figure Timothy J. O’Brien is a PhD candidate who found Students Against Sweatshops (Fall ‘07) and Students for Fair Trade (Fall’06). O’Brien got his Masters in History from the University of Houston and his Bachelors in Economics at Penn State University. The past couple of years saw O’Brien and SAS embarked on a campus campaign to get the university to source their UH logo clothing from sweatshop-free companies. In October 2008, they achieved one major milestone: UH became affiliated with the Worker Rights Consortium, an independent labor rights monitoring organization. They have yet to get UH to become part of the Designated Suppliers Program, a procurement process proposed by the WRC and the United Students Against Sweatshops. The campaign to make UH sweat-free has given SAS an unprecedented amount of media attention for a student organization. The group’s frequent use of street theater and passion for their cause has kept the issue in the spotlight, which is exactly where they want it. On April 2, 2009 at a news conference, O’Brien publicized a lawsuit he filed for the SAS against UH chancellor and president Dr. Renu Khator, psychology professor Donald Foss, and members of the Apparel Task Force set up by Khator to investigate UH ties to sweatshops.  Litigation on this case is still pending.

As a result of its tactics, SAS has stirred up passions on both sides of the sweatshop debate. Instead of traditional protests, SAS uses street theater. These creative actions get attention to a particular cause by conducting performances and presentations in public spaces. O’Brien likes to use street theater because it makes it fun for the people doing it and the people watching. Some SAS actions have been labeled “radical” by members of the UH administration, faculty and student body. While many fellow students agree that the cause is just, the tactics the SAS employs have put off students who interpret the actions more as harassment. Supporters of SAS argue that they are taking up a noble cause with little support from students or administration and improving the lives of exploited peoples while bringing the status-quo into question.

*To hear Tim’s full thoughts on the question, listen to the MP3 file at the end of each answer

What do you attribute your group’s success to get Khator to sign on to the WRC?

I think that there are a couple of things. One is the work ethic. Working for social justice is not something that is easy to do. We have to put a lot of time and effort into it. Some of our members, myself included, have worked really hard. The other thing is not giving up. So I guess the word is…. consistency. People get into social justice groups on a college campus for different reasons. A lot of people just want to socialize, meet new friends, hook up, find some people to date, but if you have some people that really firmly believe in the cause and stay consistent on a week to week basis and even over the summer like we’ve been both summers we’ve existed, then your gonna get success. It’s just hard work and staying with it….

What steps did SAS take to get UH to sign on to the cause?

Well, with the WRC we started out by going through the Student Government Association -it’s important to exhaust all the “democratic” processes in place. If the SGA passes a bill like they did to sign the WRC, the staff and faculty can sign off or object to it. They sign off and then it goes to the desk of the president. She sat on it. She didn’t do anything. She established a phony apparel committee, but we kept the issue in the press. In the spring of ‘08, we got more publicity than any student group in the history of the university as far as we know. I’ve did a lot of research on that: back to the 60’s when the black struggles were going on with civil rights. That kept the issue out front. When Khator came out with her phony apparel report in early July 08, we did a house protest at her house to make sure she would come out. She said,”At the end of June, I told them to give a report”. We pushed that, they came out with it. We kept pushing and saying “look they recommended to do what we wanted to: join the WRC”. Finally in October of 08, she did it. It’s because of the pressure,we kept the pressure and tried to keep it in the media, which is difficult to do. We had to do street theater, we had to make props, and we had to try to organize on a commuter campus. Getting 20 kids to walk to the president’s office from the library seems like it’s a really simple thing, it’s extremely difficult. People aren’t interested. People are busy, and [we have] a lot of working class at our university. Again, working really hard, keeping it in the media spotlight, staying consistent, staying on it, never giving up, keep pushing, even if it’s 3 or 4 of us going on a weekly basis to the office of the president and dropping a letter saying,”hey, you haven’t dealt with our issue”. They get tired of that.

Why would UH be hesitant to sign on to the WRC?

That’s a good question because the WRC, no one in Texas had joined it. She (Khator) was hesitant on setting a precedent, a precedent on human rights! The one precedent she is setting is that student pressure can get her to do what they want. She is afraid that the students will be empowered. And if enough students see that… Look there’s 10 or 12 students in SAS over this period of time, sometimes less, [and these 10-12] have forced her to do something that no university in the state of Texas has done. Then it gets out of her control, she wants to keep it a dictatorship where she decides what to do, and these democratic groups SGA, Faculty Senate, Staff Council don’t really have any say, they don’t. She can’t let you disturb the status quo. We disturbed the status quo, and that’s very dangerous if you think about it. If 34,000 students on our campus just started pushing on issues – whatever their issue is – it would be chaotic and it would cause a lot of problems for her. She can’t allow people to set a precedent.

Describe some of the personal attacks you have experienced while working for labor rights.

Cesar Chavez is one of my social justice heroes, and anyone that has any amount of intellect knows that Cesar Chavez made humongous positive social change. He uplifted a lot of people like farm workers that were stuck in poverty. So I have to learn the lessons of history that you can’t be bothered with that. There’s always gonna be people who want to tear you down. One of the more humorous and hateful ones was a comment on the Houston Press blog that said,”I wish Tim would take the Vietnamese baby he bought, and get away from everyone. Leave them alone”. They are talking about my daughter. My wife is Asian, and my daughter’s always with me because my graduate funding got cut because of my social justice. These aren’t based on truth. My daughter is not Vietnamese. My wife is Korean. I didn’t buy my daughter. My wife had her. I’ll glance at them sometimes, but I’m not gonna take time to respond. I can’t let it bother me. We’ve made positive social change. We better people’s lives. The amount of coffee that’s sold that’s fair trade has bettered a lot of people’s lives. Why would I care about some person who is hating about me making positive social change? I’m doing good!

Why do you think you’re a controversial figure?

I think because first of all, when you’re a social activist,you’re pointing out an injustice. And when you point out an injustice, you make people uncomfortable. You’re saying this coffee you buy, these tomatoes on campus, are sourced from slave labor. People get uncomfortable about that. If I could just go through my life, work my job, raise my family, and have fun and not have to see that, it would be a lot easier. I live in a black neighborhood and I see people’s rights getting violated everyday. But if your gonna ignore it, it’s a lot easier.Tim O’Brien and these groups are always bringing this injustice up in your face and people get uncomfortable. They look in the mirror and they see they aren’t really doing anything. A lot of people are not doing anything. I’m not saying they have to. You’re not obligated to make the world a better place. They feel uncomfortable about these injustices and so the way they deal with it, instead of trying to get involved or just do one little thing, they’re gonna attack the person, shoot the messenger who’s bringing this injustice to their face. Their value system is: the world is a just place. I go to college, I get a good job, I raise my family, and I live happily ever after but unfortunately it’s not always like that. Their value system is: the status quo is good. I have a view that the world is an unjust place. It’s conflicting. They need to get me away from them.

What was the reasoning behind the Khator coffin action?

We got a lot of negative feedback on that. That action was a funeral march, like the death of worker’s rights. Again, the idea is to keep something in the media, and that got the Houston Chronicle. You have to come up with some creative street theater. We had a coffin and a tombstone saying, “We’re burying workers rights”. It got the attention we want. At the same time, when you reflect back on it, UH and Houston in general are fairly conservative places. It seems that it was very radical for us to do that. People would say, “Aw these people are nuts, their burying workers rights.” What we wanted was to get press attention, so we got that. Did we get a bunch of people saying we’re crazy and nuts? Of course, that’s expected. Could we have framed in it in a little nicer way? We could’ve done a softer action instead of a hard action. If people look past the coffin and past the street theater, they see food service workers and janitors getting paid poverty wages.  In the bigger scheme of things, it was a successful protest and action.  We got the publicity.  There’s always gonna be people hating.  The facts that we’re doing that on are true.  Right now food service workers and janitors are getting paid minimum wage.  Workers don’t have a lot of rights on campus.  We stand by our facts.  Could we have did another action and got as much press?  I don’t know.

What companies are the worst offenders in terms of sweatshops?

I think Nike is the poster child. We just noticed here on campus last week Nike hoodies displayed in our bookstore on a table right when you walk in. I think that Nike is historically the company. Nike and sweatshops go together. In the beginning of the United Students Against Sweatshops 10 years ago at Duke, students started asking their administration where these clothes were made and in what conditions. They looked into it and saw Nike. Nike has been pounded time and time again. They really haven’t changed. We’re gonna be putting some stuff out on campus in the fall about that. As far as we know, this is a new relationship with Nike. We haven’t done the research or got the contract. Nike is the worst. You want to stay away as far as you can.

How do you respond to some of your ex-SAS members that say you alienate members of the group?

Well, that’s a group dynamics thing. Our group is really small. There’s always gonna be group dynamics problems. People are at different levels of maturity. I’m an older graduate student with a kid, wife and mortgage. When your between 18 and 20 whatever, your living at home and your at a different maturity level. The thing about social justice groups is there is always one big issue: accountability. This is always an issue. You have meetings, people take on tasks, its volunteer work. The next week you go to the meeting and ask did everyone do what they were supposed to do? Inevitably people don’t, people blow it off. There’s a fine line of holding people accountable. It’s supposed to work with peer pressure.  As a leader, even though we’re horizontal, you might say what can we do to help you complete that task.  A lot of people are gonna handle it like “your attacking me, your oppressing me” and really we just want people to be accountable to the group.  When other people do their part and you don’t do yours, that disrespecting the people that are doing the work.  People are gonna take it personal.  People are gonna personalize it, and it’s not a personal thing.  We’re a group moving towards a goal.

Has UH tried to censure you in anyway for raising these issues?

Well, they’ve cut my graduate funding for three years in a row. That’s the biggest way. There’s two lawsuits related to that – one in federal court and one in state court. I don’t think I’m gonna get any justice in either court because I don’t have a lot of money.  I’m doing the lawsuits myself.I think the court system is very corrupt. They have censured me and they’ve filed phony disciplinary charges against me to get me expelled which is still pending from June ‘08.I’ve been withdrawn for two semesters cause my father’s bout with cancer. He’s passed now. They are doing everything they can to get rid of me, expel me, so I don’t get my PhD. I made a decision. To me it’s more important to stand up for my principles. If I don’t get a PhD in black history, and I don’t get a job as a black history professor teaching black history the rest of my life like I want to, that’s not the end of the world for me. I’m not gonna live on my knees and make compromises.

Why the interest in Black History? (E-mail question)

Music first got me interested in black history, specifically blues music. Once I started getting into blues, I wanted to learn where it came from, and that quickly led to slavery – so that’s black history.

Then my interest just went from there. When I changed from econ grad school to history grad school, I needed to find a topic and my topic was black music, specifically a blues biography of Lightnin’ Hopkins. To write a PhD dissertation you need to know the field of your topic, and that field is 20th century African-American history. I can’t write a book about a black blues singer and not know the wider black history. Then my interest just went from there. When I changed from econ grad school to history grad school, I needed to find a topic and my topic was black music, specifically a blues biography of Lightnin’ Hopkins. To write a PhD dissertation you need to know the field of your topic, and that field is 20th century African-American history. I can’t write a book about a black blues singer and not know the wider black history.

Plus I just enjoy black culture, music came first but food, clothes, art, my church, etc… it’s all black culture. Six years ago my wife and I got this low-income people’s house and its in Freedmen’s Town, the most historic black neighborhood in Houston.

The first paper I ever did in grad school was on my neighborhood and that’s when I found out the cool stuff my neighbors did (community organizing, preserve and bring attention to black history). Living here just reinforces my interest on a daily basis even though it’s almost completely gentrified, it’s still heaped in black history. There is hardly any black history written about Houston and that makes the field wide open for a younger scholar like me…

Anything you want to tell the UH students?

Students should take the time to look at the people that work at the university, and they should think about those people that are cleaning the classrooms and handing them the food – that those people are human beings. And that we need to think about those people have families, those people have lives. I’m not saying students are disrespecting them; I’m saying that our university is disrespecting them by not paying them enough and treating them correctly. As students, we should care about our fellow man, at least the person who is cleaning our class or serving us food. You don’t have to get involved in either of our groups. Don’t be afraid to speak up and say something to somebody about it. You don’t have to devote your life to social justice, but you can voice your opinion and say that it’s wrong that these people are living in shacks across Scott St. and they don’t have money to do anything except just walk back and forth to work everyday. A university is not just learning in the classroom, you can learn outside the classroom. Take opportunities when there is an event. Take the time to go to an event and learn something, you’ll be happy you did.